Why Companies Can't Be Inclusive, the 8000 Ways to Be Black, and Can Anxiety Be Wisdom?

:: 00:00

Your capitalist job is not structured to care for you. At this point, I find comfort in naming that as opposed to denying it. If people aren't going out of their way or doing anything to create that environment of belonging, then what I say is, you know, you gotta start thinking about how you get out of there. I would get panic attacks on my way to my job if that wasn't my body saying, listen, this idea of 8000 ways to be black complicates those ideas by recognizing there's no template for being. You know, we don't have to attempt to fit in a box like, we don't have to. And I'm not here to necessarily debate capitalism, but I'm going to talk about capitalism.

:: 00:38

Welcome back to the Working well Black show. I'm your host, Walter Gainer II, and this is your go to resource for career growth and entrepreneurship. In today's episode, I'm joined by Drisana McDaniel. She's a senior researcher and instructor at the Acosta Institute, and she joined me for a live show I did during LinkedIn's creator program. We talked about everything from the 8000 ways to be black, how to look at anxiety as wisdom, and the side effects of calling out your organization for being toxic. Now, if you want to learn more about how to be part of our next live conversation, I'll share more information on that soon. But if you're ready to learn about things like how letting go of control could put you in a position to grow, then make sure you're tapped in, locked in. Pay close attention to what she's about to say, because we're starting right now. Welcome, y'all. Thank you for joining me today. My name is Walt. I'm out here basically creating content for people just to, you know, experience new growth. It's all focused around working while black. But a lot of these concepts, I think, could be applied all across the world. Yeah, all across the world. But I like to focus in on black people in the working environments because sometimes we have resources, but they're not catered to our experiences. So I'm excited about this live today, y'all. Not only the topic, but our guest, you know, Deshauna has influenced a lot of what I have created and has helped me to really, you know, find myself. I'm still on this journey. But one thing in particular that she definitely directly inspired was the first question that I asked on my podcast, and it's, how do you identify? It's one of my favorite questions because we live in a world where people tell you who you should be, who they think you are, and how you should act. And oftentimes that comes before we even have a chance to discover who we really are, right? And me personally, I've always known that black people are not a monolith. We're not the same. There's not one way to be, but to really understand just how diverse we are. Has been a journey for me, just based on living in different areas and speaking to different leaders who are a living example of just how okay it is to step out of the box and fully accept who you are. And one of these people, if you don't know by now, is Risani McDaniel, who actually coined the concept, created this concept called 8000 ways to be black. And it came to her after observing just how many, like, the various ways that black people exist. And she noticed this while living in Atlanta. She'll probably talk more about this when I bring her back on. But as I think about how to grow in your career, I understand that, you know, you must first know yourself and accept where you are in the range of blackness. So, Marcus. Yo. Thank you for joining in. Appreciate you tuning in. We recently connected. I can't wait to actually have a follow up call together. But, yeah. Now, without further ado, I want to bring up the guest of the hour before I just keep talking forever. Everyone, welcome Jasona McDaniel to the stage. Jasana, thank you so much for joining us today.

:: 04:02

Thank you for having me.

:: 04:03

So, Drosana, before I just continue once again to go on and on, how are you feeling today?

:: 04:09

I feel good. Yeah, it's been. Yesterday was a really busy day, and today was busy, but not in a pressing way. So I got a lot of things done that I wanted to get done. So I'm feeling a sense of accomplishment. I feel fully present for being here with you.

:: 04:28

That's awesome. You know, that's actually perfect because, you know, this live was originally scheduled for Tuesday. And I think both of us just had just like, life was lifeing. That's my new phrase. I love to say life was definitely life. And for both of us. So I'm glad were able to get this going. And also, I'm really glad everyone is here with us today. Cause it means a lot that one. You were down to join in Tuesday, but you're coming back strong today. So I appreciate that. Rosie, in the chat, she was doing a lot to help promote this.

:: 04:58

So thank you.

:: 04:59

We got Christopher Ward junior in the chat. He featured guest for last week's live, and he did his thing. And really, it was like, this is a great follow up to that conversation, too. I guess my first question for you to get this whole thing started is, how do you identify?

:: 05:18

Yeah, so I love this question, and it changes all the time for me. But in brief, I'll start in brief. It's identify as a mother, worker, scholar, activist, mother worker, scholar, activist, and all of those. I'd hyphenate all of that, but that would be my primary way of identifying you're. Being a mother informs my work. Being a worker informs the way that I parent. Being a mother informs the scholarship, the research that I. That I engage. And being a worker, having had the experience of working, being a mother also informs my activism, you know, the way that I show up in the world and the work. So that's a simple answer. I'll trouble it a little bit just because it can get complex. I'd say that I'm queer, and queer in that the normal foundation of my life isn't shaped by, like, heteronormative or romantic relationships. So what's normal for a lot of people is just not normal, necessarily for me. And I'm an INTJ personality type, which means I live in a world of ideas. I'm neurodivergent, like many of us are now that we talk about it, meaning it's challenging for me to start and finish things and organize my time, um, according to sort of the myth of linearity. Um, and. And that also means that I'm drawn to multitasking. I'm always doing a lot of things. Um, at one time, it can be really overwhelming for a way that makes me, um, productive. And so all of that's really a part of my identity.

:: 06:49

I like that. Okay, so can we go back to the beginning? Can you, um, repeat the, uh, the whole, like, slogan just on Daniel? The mother worker activists.

:: 06:57

Yeah. Mother worker, scholar activists.

:: 06:59

Scholar activists. Okay.

:: 07:01

Yeah.

:: 07:02

So it's interesting you kind of answer with those, because each of those are, I think, really represent huge life changes or different phases throughout your life. And I know you couldn't really pick one to be, like, which one was the most transformational, but I kind of want to ask that anyways. Which one do you think has really just transformed the way that you look at yourself the most?

:: 07:27

Yeah, it might be mother. It's probably why I lead with that. I hadn't really thought of that. I definitely. I'm a person who I lead with talking about my experiences as a mother and speaking of my children, and so I'd say, yeah. Like, so much of who I am and how I am is because of. Because of mothering. Yeah. Not in a way either. Where it's. Where it's like, oh, all I do. All I do is think about my children. But it's informed everything that I do, right. So it's informed my choice of, in particular, like, my choice of work now, in terms of what I do. And like I said, just how I think and what I think about and what issues I raise and how I move in the world is informed by my children. So anyone that meets me generally hears about my children, I kind of bring them. Like, I'm never, without mentioning them. So I'd say mother, for sure, the most transformational.

:: 08:24

For me, that's a good answer too, actually. Too. You can't say mother. Your kids are watching. Like, mom, what. What we did, it transformed. You gotta answer with that. And I like that. Too forward seems. I think for me, just how I identify. I feel like I'm still discovering that. So I don't even know how to answer, but I like that. So everyone watch. I'm curious if you have 1234 words that you would use as kind of like, shortcuts to answer, how do you identify? I would love to hear it in the comments. So just on this question, as I mentioned before, was inspired by you and kind of you sharing years ago when we spoke about the 8000 ways to be black. Now that has stuck with me for years. Years. And I love it because it kind of freed me in a sense. And I think about just my experience to seeing different ways that black people can be. Like, moving to Charlotte after college and seeing black people playing, like, you know, punk rock music. And that's something that isn't necessarily new. You know, we've been doing this, but it was something new to me, especially someone who had dabbled in different types of instruments but didn't always see a lot of black people there. And that was one of my first moments of really seeing the different ways that we could be. But, um. Can you share with everyone what led to you? Um. But what led to this observation?

:: 09:52

Yeah. So to begin with, I'm really dramatic, so 8000 ways, you know, I'm dramatic, so I'm like, yeah, there's 8000 ways to be black. You know, like, that's how I, you know how I am, right? Like, but what I. In my background. So in undergrad, I studied sociology.

:: 10:08

But let me go further back. Let me go to my upbringing. I was raised my father was a lifer in the air force, so that means I lived all over the place, right? I was born in the south, but spent my first eight years of my life in northern California, then Denver, then Germany, and then landed in Charleston, South Carolina, where I was like, what has happened? You know? And one of the things I say is sometimes we come to know who and how we are by noticing what we are not, who we are not. And that was very much a big part of my awakening, was sort of like the experience of sort of not being the expectation, not being the expected. So it was really uncomfortable initially. And then I moved to Atlanta where there were 8000 ways to be black. I was like, so just getting back to your opening sort of observation of how we are not a monolithic, that's. That's felt and experienced in Atlanta. You know, there's. We come from all over in Atlanta, and there's also this. We know Atlanta's like, you know, it's a black mecca, right? There's a lot of freedom. Freedom to become who you.

:: 11:22

Who you want to be. And so it was there that I was able to see, oh, my gosh. Okay, so there's all kinds of ways to be how we are. And so that's where I would say I started to, like, heal. Honestly, I started to heal because. Because it was disorienting to be in a place like Charleston where, like I said, it was kind of like, well, who are you? Where are you from? I couldn't really say where I was from, why I am the way I am. And I felt that difference. And I felt that difference because people ask you, would people ask you, well, what are you? Who are you? You're very clear, like, oh, clearly I'm not.

:: 12:02

Something here is not quite like the other. And what does that mean? So Atlanta was very therapeutic for me to sort of awaken to an identity where I recognized there were infinite ways to be black and also just. And then studying sociology and parenting again, like, really wanting to make sure that I was raising liberated children.

:: 12:27

Free children, free people. It became, you know, really important for me to take all that into consideration, to make sure that I create opportunities for my children to choose how they want to be in the world, also exposing them to a multitude of events, multitude of foods and spaces and people and being in relationship with all kinds of people so they could sort of experience and recognize their complexity and their freedom. And so, yeah, I realized that now. That sort of, that recognition for me made room for my refusal. Also the ways that I refuse to kind of adopt dimensions of identity that were assumed about me. And this happens a lot, right? This happens a lot because less now, I think. I think we have much more freedom. But you think about how people come to know people that are different than them. It's often, you know, sort of mediated, right, through television and videos and songs and books, and there's these ideas that people have about people, but, yeah, but when you're encountered in the person and you don't quite fit, you know, you don't quite fit that expectation of how one should be, I think that that's where we begin to sort of, we can, we can kind of investigate that.

:: 13:47

We can become more curious about. About what that might mean for us. And I think one thing else, another thing I'll say, and then I'll let you ask me more questions because, you know, I could talk forever, is, um, for example, here's one thing, for example, like, I never intended to live a life in line with respectability, politics of respectability, the respectable black woman, so to speak.

:: 14:07

No shade on those who do. But one thing that I kind of noticed in Atlanta within black folks is you had a, you had classes within black folks, so you had your bourgeoisie or your elite folks. And there, and there were ways that certain expectations were aligned with being part of a particular kind of class. So, again, I came to know who I was by what I was not and also who I wasn't willing to be. So my exemplars weren't necessarily respectable kind of folks striving in line with expectations for a particular type of way of being, to sort of recognize joy. And so I think that this idea of 8000 ways to be black complicates those ideas by recognizing there's no template for being, you know, we don't have to attempt to fit in the box.

:: 14:57

Like, we don't have to those, those, I mean, there's ways that people are literally etiquetted, talk to, you know, debutanted, debuted into. Like, there are all of these ways that we are made, right. And, yeah, and I'm just very much against, against trying to, you know, sort of fit folks in the boxes, especially when you see that some people get there and they hate it. You know, they don't, they don't feel whole, they don't feel authentic. So.

:: 15:27

Oh, yeah, I loved all of that. I want to take a moment real quick to highlight something that Rosie shared. And this was really beautiful, too. So Rosie, she shared that movie. Jones, like Jay Jones, encourages us to write our own oriki I'm mispronouncing a lot of these things, but that means I have some more research to do. But Ricky, to describe slash introduce ourselves. And I love it. Rosie says in her book, she says, what's an oriki? It is a Yoruba word that combines two words to mean praising your head. Mine, Ori, is head and cut off. That was a lot. You put in a lot of knowledge there. It's like too much for the live stream. But she can easily say that Ori is head and key is to greet or praise. And Oriki is a great greeting that praises you through praising your kinship and speaking life to your destiny. It's your personal height mantra and can be spoken or sung. And she continued to say, and this, I love this because it was like a great lead into how she identifies. So Rosie says that I am Rosie of the young clan. She who is more than meets the eye, changer of lenses, bringer of justice, wielder of the world, word soothe speaker, Jedi warrior, decolonizer.

:: 16:51

Come on, Rosie. Rosie, why are you so amazing? Yes, and thank you for bringing lovey into the conversation. Because if I recall correctly, her awakening was also very much about kind of recognizing what she was. Not, if I recall correctly, through the process, like being from elsewhere, right? Being an immigrant, either an immigrant or first generation immigrant. Like, her experience was like coming up against this sort of, like, you know, other people, like, not knowing, like how to say her name or how to. I might be wrong, but I feel like it was. It was an awakening for her, too.

:: 17:32

Look up all of that, Rosie, thank you for sharing all of that. If y'all are in the comments, you could do it now, come back or afterwards. Make sure you check her profile out. She's really dope. Podcast and also definitely gotta show some love. Chris came through and said he came to know who I am by discovering who I was, not. I love that. I think that aligns with kind of what you were saying, right? Just on a. You shared. From what I'm hearing, it sounded like you knew exactly that. Well, I may not necessarily fit in. I'm still going to be me. I see that this is a path I could follow, but that just doesn't sit right for who I am. And I love the part where you say, like, you could go that way and kind of fit into the box, but you wouldn't be happy there. I'm curious, how did you know that would be the case? Like, were you like, straight from the gate? Like, nah, this is who I am, or did it take time to really discover? That's not the way for me.

:: 18:31

Yeah, of course not. I mean, we're trying to find belonging, right, when we're young. And for me, 16. Charleston was 16. So a really important critical time sort of in my development, right. Like, trying to figure out who I was. I think 16 to, like, 30 would. There was a lot of that kind of happening for me. So, no, I didn't know that. And then I had, on top of that formal education that gave me space to think critically about what sort of what this crooked room was. And, you know, that's Melissa Harris Perry who talks about, like, it's the room that's crooked, not me. It's not you. It's crooked. It's like. And she's generally talking about sort of white capitalist, hetero patriarchal society. But same thing, you know, it's really these socialized, sort of these norms of the overculture, right? Encountering them and beginning to really think about, wait a minute, what does it mean if I don't fit in that box? Like, what does it mean if I say I'm queer and that. No. Like, I'm not. I'm not. I wasn't groomed for relationship like I was. I'm not out seeking a partner. You're seeking a husband. Right. Or a wife, for that matter. Even, like. Or romantic relationships aren't the foundation of my world. There's, you know, they're great, but at the same time, like, I'm not oriented around that. So what is it like to sort of recognize, like, I'm not oriented around that and notice how so many people are, right. And what does it mean if you're not. And so just learning to. And it takes a minute, I think, to, you know, I'm 44 to start to live those out loud, to, like, not make apologies for the difference, but. But when people scratch their head, you know, you can feel awkward, right? Or you can feel like, do you need me to explain more to you? And that generally happens. I think it happens when you, you know, when we come to have a certain type of self possession, a certain type of being okay with who and how we are. Yeah. So a lot of things have, you know, a lot of things got me there, I should say. Like I said, a lot of it is that idea of sort of recognizing what I was not and then, and then thinking about, like, what do I do with that? Because I'm certainly not going to go to great lengths to try to make myself like others. You know, similarities, too. It's not that I was set out to make myself so different. It's just in terms of inner knowing. Right. In terms of knowing myself, there was a way to know that. That's just not. That's not it. That's not it. I'm a little more complex than that, and I think we all are. I think we all are. Some of us are just more comfortable with sort of naming the ways that we are different. Right? Naming how we are.

:: 21:25

I like that, man. I want to take a moment to recognize a few additional people. I don't think I shouted out before, but. Lisa Young, actually, doctor Lisa Young. I see. PhD at the end. Appreciate you tuning in. Also, Freddie herrera. Freddie, my Guy. We went to college together. Appreciate you, uh, joining in. And, um, yeah, feel free for joining the conversation, you know, um, let's see. Chris. Oh, you know what? His quote before, came to know who I am by discovering who I was not. That was a direct quote from you. Real time with the gems in there, too. Um, thanks for clarifying that. I didn't even notice. I was like, oh, Chris, I still. I like that. But it's right from just on. Um, Rosie, she really love this person you just mentioned. It's not me. It's the room that's crooked. I love that, too. I think that just speaks a lot of.

:: 22:18

It.

:: 22:19

Just says a lot. Right. Especially when we think about the idea of working while black as well. When we're entering in these professional environments, it's easy to just fall in line. And the way things are and who they expect you to be at the office, it doesn't always feel right. And I love that because it just reminds me that, okay, so even these organizations where they're saying, this is the way these things are, this is how it's worked forever. Just do this. You know, it's like, it's not necessarily me. It's just this environment that's crooked. So what are your thoughts on staying true to who you are? You are an organization or an environment that doesn't support that?

:: 23:08

Yeah, that's complicated. See, where to start with that? So one of the things that I'm thinking about in particular, in the line of work I'm in, which comes from having had the experiences of being in organizations where they don't necessarily create belonging. It's hard. It's hard. And what I'd say is, if we think about the experience of working while black, we can think about how we may end up in situations or in organizations where we are one of a few right token that's what I experienced here in Charleston. Not so much in Atlanta, just because it's Atlanta. So even if I was working for a company where there aren't a lot of black folks, we're everywhere. But what I want to say is that, you know, as a black person working in a company where we. Where belonging hasn't been created, there's a particular type of vulnerability we experience, of course. And that vulnerability feels like being hyper visible and being invisible. Both. That's how I experienced being here in Charleston. The company I worked for was in no way, shape, or form anti racist, and I would even suggest that they were happily monocultural, despite the fact that they hired some people of color. So, yeah. So I think that when one is beginning to feel unsupported by your work environment, you have to think about how you want to proceed. Do you want to get out the box or do you want to try and change the place from within? I've tried both. I think it's really, it's exhausting work to try and change the place because, because it's structured. It's structured to be a particular kind of way. And this is working for black organizations and organizations that aren't, you know, if the work environment is not for you, if time is up, time is up. I remember that conversation came up last week, and so how to get there. So here's what I'll say. Get some support. So if we want to connect this to identity in particular, you're going to have to get some support. You're going to have to. And that support looks like therapy. That support looks like coaching, that support looks like finding your people, your community group for support. Get some support to care for yourself while you plan on how you're going to get out. Because the thing is. Oh, I like that. You can't fix what you didn't breakisha Davidson. Yeah.

:: 26:14

I appreciate you sharing that. That's absolutely right.

:: 26:17

So here's the thing. It's not easy to stand in your integrity and values when you're working in an organization that's structured against them. And that's kind of, it's kind of heavy, you know, but. But that's kind of what it boils down to, right? If you're in a place where you're not feeling belonging, it's going to be a painful place to be. And if people aren't going out of their way or doing anything to create that environment of belonging, then what I say is, you know, you got to start thinking about how you get out of there. So this is what I mean, why I say deep. So, for instance, and I'm not here to necessarily debate capitalism, but I'm going to talk about capitalism.

:: 26:57

Let's go there. Let's do it.

:: 26:59

Your capitalist job is not structured to care for you. It's not structured to care for you. The structure is the work you're swimming in. And so the practices that are part of that structure seem normal. They're normalized, right. And so what happens there, even in the face of policy, is that you're, if you're in a place where you're, where you're not in line with that, is not in line with your values and doesn't honor your being, you're being met with a type of violence, right? Seems as if everyone else is going along, but you're going to experience something as a result of not being able to go along with that. Inner shame, maybe, or incompetence, or even rage. But again, it's the structure that's the crooked room. It doesn't accommodate you. And sometimes when this becomes apparent, an organization will go to great lengths to let you know that they're not accommodating you. They'll put you on probation. They'll pay people to come in and teach you how to skill up so that you could fit into their box. You know, this is an example of. But, yeah, if they're not in line with you and your values, in a sense of who you are, and you have to change yourself, cramp yourself up to go along with what that work environment is, you want to begin thinking about how to get out of there. For instance, one time I worked for a company, an organization, where someone in a senior position said, made a comment. She made the comment. Quite often, anyone's expendable. That's a value statement, right? And that was completely incompatible with me. It was a red flag that their values are, that anyone's expendable. So really beginning to think about where you are, right, and how you're aligned with that space is important. And it's a process. It's a process of getting to a place because we know we need jobs, right, we know we need work, but we really need to also think about, like, how we'll be, how we'll be well, how we'll be in line, how we'll be able to move in the world in a way that is in line with our purpose, right? Our life work. So I spent a lot of years kind of in a situation where there was some support, but now I look back. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, that was really violent. You know, I suffered a lot and often silently because I felt like there was nothing else I could do. And now if I, you know, and I'm in a position where I am consulting with folks and organizations and talking about belonging, how do we create belonging and also helping people to think about what's good for them? I have an entire different way of approaching it based on the fact that I was in that kind of situation. I endured that type of sort of structural violence as opposed to structural care, where it was basically about, like, instead of talking about race, it's like, let's talk about, I don't care what race you are, as long as you can make this happen, as long as you can make these numbers, you know? So, yeah, just. It's complex. It's complex.

:: 30:15

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It's interesting that one leader who said, everyone's expendable, it's like, I appreciate that type of clear communication. And then now I know, okay, so this is not the place for me. You're not sugar coating it like that. Yeah. Time to leave. I'm a big fan of leaving organizations. I like, anytime I sense a little bit like, hmm, this is some red flag, I don't feel like I could change this. I'm gonna dip. But you mentioned you've done both, right? You left an organization, but you've also felt that or you tried to fix it, basically change it from within. Can you share a little bit about that experience? Like, what were some of the things that you tried to do?

:: 31:40

Well, I mean, I'm saying that I. That I try to just cope with it, you know? So I'm saying you can either. You can either leave or you can try to fix it from within. Yeah, I don't think that I was very, like, I feel like, I don't think I was really proactive with, with trying to change it from within. Unless we count the having really candid and explicit conversations that eventually just moved me out of organization.

:: 32:09

I think that's part about it.

:: 32:10

Speaking about it, holding people accountable are saying, like, here's what's kind of problematic about this. Like, you're saying this one thing, but you're doing this thing. You know, when I got to a point where I could just talk them people, you know, then that's a threat. So. But I think about people like Chris, who talked a lot about, you know, some real strategies around, like how you partner with folks and ally with folks and help people out as you're preparing to do the next thing. And I do think that there's a lot to be said for that. I definitely, there were some relationships that were incredibly helpful even after leaving work in the past that helped me to land where I am now. Even the reputation, when you're dealing with folks with integrity and values that are in line with yours or even see the value you bring, that speaks volumes for itself. But again, like I said, you know, capitalist organizations aren't necessarily built to care for you. And this isn't to say they don't exist, but that's not the nature of, that's not the purpose of the organization necessarily. And there are a few that go to great lengths to create belonging, but many don't. Many don't. Many. It's bottom line. Many, it's depending on who's running. Who's running it. Right. Like, if you're dealing with a person who's never had to interrogate their intersectionality or, or their race privilege. Right. Or their class privilege, they don't necessarily, they won't necessarily. Right. Just based on the fact that you don't feel belonging. Right. So. So, yeah, it just depends.

:: 33:54

Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate you answering all these questions the way they were. Like, I, for everyone watching, when I invite people on, I kind of talk to them about the general theme, but I kind of leave the questions. I kind of keep them tucked. Keep them tucked, because there's a difference between just that raw reaction, and I really appreciate you kind of just pulling all of that from within. And one thing you started to mention is about the work you're doing now, which I would love to hear more about from the alchemy of now concept that you're working on and also some of the coaching and training that you do on an individual for individuals.

:: 34:37

Yeah. So, well, there's the teaching collective, of course, which I am so grateful that I have the time and energy to work with my dearest friends and colleagues in facilitating dialogue and really helping people to gain a sense of hope and relief in these times, in these times when racial inequity and all these crises that we really are finally making time to come together to contemplate. So I'm doing that teaching kind of at the nexus of mindfulness and oppression. And then the alchemy of now is a framework that I have that's kind of taking shape. I call my work following breadcrumbs. I'm not in control of it and really honoring my process. I don't really necessarily have a five year plan around my work. And so the alchemy of now is a framework that really helps folks to think together in either community contemplation or one on one about how to achieve integration in their lives, how to turn towards what is their lives, as opposed to what we're accustomed to, which is to deny, to ignore, to numb right, to numb ourselves from, to fly over all these ways that we avoid dealing with our lives as they are, which means the good and the ugly and the complex and the work. So the recently departed Bell hooks defines integrity as congruence between what we think, what we say, and what we do. And the alchemy of now is a framework that helps people achieve that. And what I'm not is I don't have this sort of title of life coach or relationship coach or career coach. I really think there's a place for coaching people based on what doesn't feel in line with their lives, like what they're sort of attuned to, that's kind of flickering in the periphery, calling for their attention, something that they want to focus more on and holding space to walk them through processes that help them to achieve a sense of inner alignment and hope and relief. So that means it could be someone in leadership who is wanting to think about the ways that they're working, wanting to feel more joy in their work, wanting to feel more integrity in the way that they work. The same things I was talking about, like, when you're in a company where their values just don't align with yours, I mean, you end up having to do some things that just don't feel good right in the name of doing business, right in the name of keeping a job. So getting people to really think about, like, how do you feel? What are your values? What are you looking for? You know, what's your working edge right now? What's coming up for you? And that can be in, like I said, in leadership, but that could also be in a family life, right. Or. Or thinking about family histories or thinking about how to incorporate refuge into a busy life. Refuge for the self into a busy life. So it's not a particular path, necessarily, so much as it's just holding space to think and support each other as we begin to consider what is possible, what is possible, you know, future imagining and. And making, you know, doing the hard things that transform our realities. Right. That's the alchemy, is that transmutation, like, how can we take what is and be with it in a way that fortifies us, you know, and being very clear, like, that life is, you know, not bringing that sort of toxic positivity, that perspective, to the work of living, but recognizing that life is complex. You know, there are things to celebrate and there are things to work through. And so creating a space where we can really hold both so that we increase our capacity for resiliency, our capacity to bounce back, our capacity to thrive, even. So. Yeah. So that's the work. That's the work. It's exciting work.

:: 39:26

It excited me just hearing about it. And it's interesting, as you're sharing that, a couple of thoughts come to mind, right? So one is like, I've actually experienced you doing this for me, and it's wonderful. Like, I think the first time I've really started to contemplate my own authenticity in regards to my work and even battling imposter syndrome, to be honest, before I even realized what that was, was through some of the conversations that you had with me. So, one, I just appreciate you doing you. And then also another thought is, with everything that I'm doing, I've realized it all revolves around discovery. Discovering the range of blackness, discovering how to create support systems for people working while black. And then also, I'm just a curious individual. I like to discover things, and I think something that I just keep hearing throughout this conversation. And just knowing you is kind of discovering identity or discovering who you are. It all, it all connects 8000 ways to be black. Alchemy of now at work, you're doing with individuals from all walks of life and classes. It's all about understanding you as such. Like a subatomic. I don't know, I feel like that's the right word, subatomic level. Um, that's just helps to really create that alignment. Really understand what alignment really means is, like, the alignment that you think you have, is it truly aligned with who you are? I love that.

:: 41:02

Yeah. And far from. Far from perfection. Right. But it's. It's it's. It's. How do we find this, like, wholeness, how do we define ourselves? Like, there is suffering. It's a promise of life. There is suffering. How do we cope with that? Like, how do we cope with our suffering? And so the alchemy of now, to be clear, was born of my own life, though, right? It was born of my own experiences when I had to spend some. When I had the opportunity, right? Because, you know, I'm a graduate student soon starting doctoral work.

:: 41:35

So my work is very much centered around contemplation and our interiority. So when I had to begin to think deeply and write about just weaving theory, like, weaving, like, how to make theory, like something that's real for us, right? So really thinking about my life, that's where this framework was born. But I've had the opportunity, through my mentor, Doctor Angela Costa, I've had the opportunity to share my framework within a lot of communities. And there's a lot of hope there, because what we're living is, while we have our nuances and our differences, the reality is there is suffering and there is celebration. Life is life. And so thinking together about ways to turn towards our lives as they are was something to share. And someone else told me that. I didn't really know it was anything to share. So that's another.

:: 42:40

That's another beautiful thing. The framework was discovered. The framework was discovered. And there's four components of the framework, right? So the first is, like, how we turn towards change, because we know that's inevitable, right? And I get into that a little bit and some practices for that. And, um, the next is how we embrace paradox. So how we. How we engage complexity in our lives. Like, the reality is nothing is binary. When I said earlier, the myth of linearity, we're taught that, like, it should be this, this, this and this. And we know that that's get rid of that as soon as possible, right? It is not. There is not that type of rhythm to our lives. Like, we get. We get, you know, COVID, I got COVID, I got furloughed, and I got liberated at the same time. So we're talking about complexity. How do we embrace that type of paradox? How do we, in making the time, to really explore that? What is the gift of this paradox? The third leg of the framework is remembering re in parentheses, and that's retrieving that which has been taught out of us has been numbed out of us has been forgotten, right? Has been brushed away.

:: 43:53

It's retrieving that wisdom. And there's practices there, too. And then the final is revival. The final leg is revival. And this is cyclical. This is overlapping. There's no rhyme or reason to it. But when you look at this idea of revival, it's how can we find daily revival? And this is even when things are horrible, you know, in the worst of the worst, you know, circumstances, we know that people wouldn't be alive. We look at our history if there weren't some sliver of light, some joy somewhere. And so how do we intentionally begin to orient ourselves towards that expectation, to see that part of our reality as well, that, like, oh, what's the. What is the revival today? So, like, this is revival, right? Whenever you and I talk, what happens? That's revival for me. Connecting in profound ways and learning from each other is revival for me. Walking my dogs is revival for me, right? Coloring with my daughter, cooking.

:: 44:54

Like, in what ways are we engaging revival? So it's just a very, the framework enables us to really spend time thinking more intentionally about how we be right or how we're becoming, even if we were to be even more specific how we're becoming, because the reality is we are. We, too, are always in motions. So. Yeah.

:: 45:18

Yeah. Wow. Okay. I don't know. Everyone dropped gem emojis, hashtag gems, whatever it is. No, not a lot. Not a lot. I think it's.

:: 45:28

It's like.

:: 45:29

It's like a. That was a full plate. You know, I just. We just consumed it, and I feel good. I don't know how y'all watching feel good, but, like, I loved all of that. And a question or a night, I guess a thought came to mind before I ask it. We're. We're kind of nearing the end, so if you do have a question for drew or just want to kind of reflect on what you're thinking out loud, do not hesitate to drop it in the comments. Whether you're watching live or catching a replay, I'm going to be in there responding to you, but, yeah. So ask you a question before we end the live, and we'll get it answered real time.

I love podcasts. They allow me to share information and stories with you wherever you are all around the world. But I'm kind of craving some more interactive experiences, so I'm creating a live series that we'll be producing at least monthly, basically, that you can tune into everywhere from the comfort of your home to on the go, whether you want to listen live or be a part of the conversation. And when I say a part of, I mean, we hear and see you as long as you want. Basically, I found some new ways to do this, all virtually. So, yeah, you could literally be in your PJ's or whatever you do, but you could be a part of the whole thing. Make sure you tune in. Tap in. Lock in. We'll be sharing invites in the I love new growth newsletter because we want to really build with the people who are here with us. Right. We want to build with y'all first. Y'all be the first to find out about it first to get the invites and to learn more about what this whole experience really edge, because it's kind of unique, not gonna lie. All right, so make sure you lock in. Newsletter link is in the description and I'll see you there.

As you were speaking just then, I just realized something. You know, change is. Is sometimes kind of terrifying, right? Like, we want it, but sometimes when it's there, it's like, yo, hold up. So I realize that a lot of the work that you're doing helps to bring. And I just using the word change because it's top of mind, but bring change into people's lives to kind of get them to where they want to be. But have you on your journey to kind of developing and be being. And becoming who you are. Has there ever been a point where you were kind of afraid of what that meant?

:: 47:55

Most of the. Often absolutely terrified. And there were all kinds of ways that I dealt with that fear as opposed to just turning towards it and saying, what do you have to teach me what you got? You know, there are a multitude of reasons that isn't easy. Right? Like, I. Like I told you, you know, yo, I have. I have three children. Well, one's an adult now. Right. And I'm not married. Right. So, yeah. Was there fear? Yeah, there are. There are people to be responsible for. What choices do I make? How would these choices complicate things for me? I'm really very much going to be the last woman standing by make when I make those choices. There's no one to blame. But sitting with that, being with that reality versus turning towards that reality and looking at what's really happening and our tendency to create anticipatory narratives. Right. To create anxiety and panic around change. Being able to move towards it in a more intentional way, in a more forgiving way, in a tender way, being able to learn new practices, like asking for help, apologizing. All of these ways. Yes. Have I been afraid? Absolutely. Have I done it anyways? Often. Yeah. Often. Actually, I think a lot of people who know me would be able to say that I do some. Some things that just make people, like, you know, scratch their heads. And there's a reason that we seek, you know, we seek security. We seek a sense of certainty around our lives, I think. But. But there are times when you can't. They're just. We're just not in control so much. Like, if we're being really honest and it's really, at this point, I find comfort in naming that as opposed to denying it.

:: 50:03

Naming what, exactly?

:: 50:05

We're not in control. Yeah, I'm not in control. I'm not in control here. I could do the best that I can, and then I can reassess, and I can pivot. I can make a new decision later on, but I can try this. You know, I can, you know, move with some critical hope, right? Not the hope just of, like, oh, please, please. But I can, like, do my best to do what I can to put some things in place, and then I can turn to wonder, you know, then I can turn to hope, right? Then I can turn to that sort of discovery, you know, that willingness to be with what comes up, to be surprised. Right. Curiosity. So these are the kinds of things that, that I engage in the, in the, in the alchemy of now, because we need it, folks.

:: 50:48

Yes, we do. Yes, we do. I'm gonna bring this comment right back up because I really love it. Rosie. Shared, facing fear and saying, what you got? Come at me, bro. I love that. And just everything you just shared about control, I don't think I've shared this with you yet. But speaking, starting off this year, just learning more about anxiety and how it's played a huge part in my life from beginning to where I am now, where it will continue. And it's just so interesting because I'm learning that just how much things like fear, anxiety, and control all connect with each other, they all play a part. And sometimes it really is just like that. Control gives us this sense of certainty and sometimes stability, and without it, it's like, what's going on? I don't like this. So I just love what you were sharing about. Yes, there's fear and sometimes just did it anyways. And this whole new mindset of being, embracing the unknown and welcoming surprise. Like, that's like, I don't even know the words, but I'm just like, oh, hold on, let me sit with that for a second. And, like, just looking at it as, like, welcoming a surprise that's very powerful.

:: 52:03

And then the other thing, Walter, I just want to say, because what I think is we live in a society that pathologizes anxiety, but it's prescribing all the things that we should do in order to experience anxiety. You feel me? Like striving is applauded. You know, while you're sleeping, I'm grinding, you know, all of these different ways that people are perpetuating striving. And you should have this and you should have that. Anxiety is your body's way of being like, hold up, wait a minute. You know, it's wisdom. I definitely had anxiety. I have so much less anxiety now than I did when I was in the couple of last companies I was working with, when I was having to, like, not know whether I'm doing the right thing or not, or having to be in awkward situations where I'm being dealt just microaggressions and can't tell my direct supervisor about it. I mean, that anxiety is your body's way of saying, pay attention to me because this isn't right. You know, it's a way of telling us what we are dealing with. And I think, you know, when I think about a lot of my own suffering, that a lot of that came from ignoring that, you know, I was trying to manage and self medicate in a lot of ways. Doing more, right? Doing more, doing more, doing more to manage those feelings. But like I said, you know, that's our body's way of saying, your revival might be rest. Your revival might be. No, I can't do that, actually. Your revival might be filling up your Google calendar with. I fill mine up with gray blocks that say drew, you know, so that I'm not, you know, having panic because I'm moving from this to this to this to this, because it's too much for my human body. Like, I've got to care for myself so I can be. Experience joy and be happy, right? And be effective at what I'm doing. So all of these ways. But see, see how even just now, we slow down and we pick it apart a little bit, right? And we begin to, like, become more curious about what might this mean? How might this be a gift? Even anxiety? How might it be a gift? Yeah, how might rage be a gift? Because the rage can't stay, but it sure tells us something's going on, right?

:: 54:16

Man, gotta share a few comments. Rakesha said, how many people have anxiety and don't realize it? That is definitely me. I'm 28 now to turn 28, and I really just understood that. Okay. Yeah, I definitely experienced anxiety this past September. So I'm new to the game, but, yeah, I think it's, like a combination of things. Right. I think sometimes maybe deep down we may feel like it, but there's a lot of shame that I know I've associated with just saying things like anxiety. So it's like, I think a lot of people don't realize it, but as soon as it's presented, it's just, like, easy click. Like, of course. It's so crazy. Then also, Lisa, just like me, she really loved anxiety as a wisdom, is quite reframing. Love this. Love this. Yeah. Just curious. There's. I don't think there's a right or wrong answer to this, but just thinking back to, like, how many people have anxiety and don't realize it, what are some thoughts that come up when you just think about that question?

:: 55:23

Well, so some of what comes up for me is thinking about the way that anxiety is pathologized, which is how you can instantly say, there was some shame when I felt, you know, naming that. Right. It's because there's this pathology around it. Something must be wrong. But anxiety is our body's way. It's. Our body's designed to literally work that way. It's literally designed to flag to you, like, yo, something is overwhelming you, or something might be dangerous here, or. Right. Like, you might need to pay attention to this. And so I think a lot of us have it. I think that we're only now at a place where we begin to normalize these kinds of conversations. So. And we actually begin to acknowledge that we have bodies, that we're not just talking heads doing heads, brains, that we are embodied. We are connected. Right. And so when you feel anxiety. So what I'm saying is, I think people have had it and not even paid attention to it. Maybe not even know, like, what is that? Why is my stomach feeling like this? Or why is my chest tight? Or why is my heart beating fast? And we think something's wrong with me, but. But it's your body's way of talking.

:: 56:40

To you.

:: 56:44

What time it is. It's your body's way of telling you what time it is, you know? And so when we experience. Because I know I would. I would get panic attacks on my way to my job if that wasn't my body saying, listen, because I would, you know, because I was going to work and start to pay attention that. What is this saying? Do I need to figure out how to do something before making that commute? You know, do I need to figure out if I can modify my hours. Do I need to? Like my body was saying, this job is giving you anxiety. And so beginning to listen to that, and then, and then once we identify that, our body tends to talk to us that way. Once we know that feeling, once we recognize that feeling and befriend it, our body will continue to talk to us in that way. It's not something to get rid of. It's something to recognize. Right. And something to meet and something to learn from. So if you're having anxiety, if you're having these and you want your body to do something different, then what do I need to do differently? What. What adjustment can I make to support myself better in this life experience that I'm having? It's not as simple as quitting a job. Sometimes. Sometimes you just got to figure out what kind of support you can put in place. There are breathing exercises, you know, seriously, little tiny pivots to support that. What are you listening to when you, you know, you can listen to? You can sit. You can get on your mat and sit, right? You can let your brain go. You know, you can listen to some soothing music. There are all kinds of ways to address it, but it is saying, pay attention to me, not something's wrong with you, but pay attention to me, man. We can frame it that way, right? We can frame it that way.

:: 58:40

I love that. It just reminds me of, like, you know, when something's, like, too hot and it burns us as our body communicates, like, hey, that's dangerous. Don't touch that. You're gonna harm yourself. And it's the same way. And what you were just sharing just made me realize that you're, like, understanding yourself and what your body needs is, like, you know, studying a foreign language almost. And once you kind of start to understand it and recognize that, you can really communicate back and forth. I love that, man. That's. Thank you.

:: 59:12

Thank you for sharing that you claim yourself that way. You claim yourself well. So when I said to you at the beginning, I'm neurodivergent, I say that so people, you know, before I used to feel ashamed about, like, ADHD, and then I saw how many of us have it, and just because of the way the medical industry works, you know, they weren't necessarily looking at little black girls to see how our brains are working. Or maybe it took us getting to middle age till we finally start to experience certain symptoms. But the shame that would come from that, right? So now I can say, oh, by the way, yeah, my brain works a little differently. So I'll be at this volleyball game. I'm be reading while I'm watching, you know, my daughter play volleyball. Like, this is how I deal. This feels good for me, you know, so beginning to start doing the things you need to do to take care of yourself as opposed to needing to be like everyone else. Are you naming. Oh, I sometimes experience anxiety. Right. Is instantly liberating. Because now, you know, okay, I can, I can learn ways to take care of myself, but I can see that as opposed to having to like hide it, because it's not something being wrong with you, it's you being fully human, it's you being connected, interconnected, you know, it's you not being in denial.

:: 00:23

Y'all. If y'all thought this was performing, you're wrong. This is her on a regular day, prepared, caught off guard. She just, just kind of drops this like mind opening. Just, just like message words, thought process, all these things. Thank you for all of this tonight. This was everything and more. The whole thing was. It's 8000 ways to be black for me. And I just love how it went from identifying who we are characteristically, interests, culturally, like, location based, to really leading into how that works in the working environment, and then down to really understanding who we are just on an atomic level, like how our mind communicates with us. That part was a much needed welcome. Appreciate the surprise. So thank you for all of that. Now, before we. I'm gonna. I'm gonna go ahead and close this out because we could probably keep going for another 3 hours.

:: 01:25

I thank you for having me.

:: 01:27

Oh, no, thank you. And if you ever, you know, needed, like, you know, a little uplift you're feeling down, definitely come back to this. Check out the comments. I'm not the only one who enjoyed this. Rosie just shared this was enlightening and uplifting. Thank you. Lisa said, you know, Dru always speaks truth. Thank you. That's facts. Chris, you just said just all the hand emojis. Thank you. And then Jessica Mack just came through to thank you to heart emoji. Definitely appreciate it. Thank you for being you. Alright, that's a wrap. Thank you so much for listening to the working wild black show. If you like today's episode, please follow us everywhere. Everywhere. If you're on Apple podcast or Spotify, you can go ahead and leave us a little rating or review. It basically helps people decide whether or not they're gonna check this show out. Alright? Because we're bringing more heat every single week to your feed. So make sure you're following us everywhere in these digital streets. My name is Walter Gaynor II. You're listening to the working while black show. I'll catch you next week. Peace.